When one is concerned about the future of the Constitution the first question might be where we look for defenders. You might think everybody would be defenders. Sadly, that is not true. There are interest groups working to invent
new rights, new relationships and new powers never envisioned by our Founding Fathers. Those who want to look to the original document are usually looked upon as “old white conservative guys.” It hurts that I qualify, but let’s look elsewhere for an “army” to defend our Constitution.
The other day driving down the Toll Road I passed Saddleback Church. I do attend on occasion, but on this particular day I was coming from a political event. I noticed the parking lot held about a zillion cars. I also suddenly realized there is more than one campus and more than one service. There is also The Vineyard and several other major churches in our neighborhood. What an army of concerned, God fearing, family raising, hardworking and over taxed group of people that has to number in the thousands. These Christians are also the target of many of the changes that adversely affect our freedoms. Some tell us that God has no place in politics. These same people apparently didn’t read much about our Founding Fathers.
Quick thought process: there are about 700,000 people in a Congressional District, and about 100,000 voted in the 45th District in June. Of the 100,000 who voted, how many are Christians? Better yet, how many would there be if the Pastors in each church came out strongly encouraging every citizen to vote in each election?
Pastors would not be telling people how to vote, but encouraging them to
vote their beliefs.
My reading of the Constitution says it promises us freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Christians have a right, in their church, to encourage political participation and even hold classes to discuss items coming to a ballot near you. I know some churches have been threatened by the IRS as if they engage in political activity. There are groups devoted to protecting the right of participation by the churches. If you need one, contact me.
My questions for the day:
- What affect on the political process would there be if the churches mobilized behind their beliefs?
- What would happen to the direction of this country if churches demanded the government fulfill its role as protector?
- How much more aware would the electorate be if churches held classes
before each election and brought knowledgeable people in to talk about the issues? - We, as Christians, have a point of view that is not being recognized. Is it
OK with you if Christians are marginalized in politics today?
Final thought for today. Have you asked your pastor to help you and your family better understand the issues of the day? If we are going to lose this country, you can bet the Christians will be a target of what follows.
Happy Independence Day. God bless all you people around the world protecting us. We are thankful for your service and you are in our prayers.
You say 'ocean of crazy' as if that is A Bad Thing.
I'm not sure what everyone does silently before each meeting or after, but we don't have an invocation or prayer or salute or pledge or whatever as a group. We're just concerned that Mission Viejo have the best library possible.
In my mind the constitution has to matter and be relevant in order for every other peice of law to be held valid. And of course the unspoken factor in this pile is illegal immigration. Back to the subject. The constitution is janus face on the subject of religion. It says both freedom of not from religion, and says separation of church and state. Today's arguments are about complete annihilation of religion or those who don't believe. It's one that shakes my ethical mind to it's core. I've been to Saddleback Church. I found it to be a change from anything that I've ever been to back at home. Note that Rhode Island has one of the highest amount of Catholic churches per capita in the United States. I found Saddleback church to be inspirational and it was full of energy and life. The fact is while some are content with not believing, others need the spiritual lift and "grace of god" in order to go on merrily in life. That's where freedom comes in.
Why is it so hard for the religious right to see that most non-Christians couldn't care less about their religious beliefs? We don't want to annihilate your religion we just don't want you to force it down our throats. Keep it to yourselves. Govern yourselves. You don't like gays? Don't be gay (oops, too late for most of you). You don't want gay marriage? Don't get gay-married. You wonder why non-believers compare the religious right to the Taliban? It's because if you had your way you'd be just like them. Sure, unlike the Taliban, you wouldn't make laws forcing women to dress "modestly". You wouldn't criminalize homosexual behavior. You wouldn't force public schools to teach your religious beliefs to all students. You wouldn't try to outlaw contraceptives. Oh wait, yes you would. History has shown over and over that when religious fanatics get any kind of power they try to force their beliefs on everyone. Crusades? Spanish Inquisition? Taliban? Jerry Falwell? Pray, love Jesus, go to church, tithe, read the bible, but most of all, keep it to yourself.
I would think that your view is probably the most mainstream in California. For the most part I agree that belief is a private matter. But ethics and morals are also in danger in many people's lives. What you just demonstrated is the great thing about the United States and the validity of the constitution. If you were in a Muslim dominated country and made statements of this nature you would be publicly hung. In America because of the freedoms that are our rights, it strikes up either accord or dissent (from most people), but the great thing is that you have the right to express it. Now to shift from rights to responsibilities. I believe that I have the responsibility to show good judgement and tact in how I express myself. History is full of evil people doing terrible things in the name of god. Most people that express faith do it becuase they believe that they are right in doing so. Evangelical christians believe that it is their calling from god. I'm not sure that there is a middle ground between you and them, but I would say that etiquette and tact would be the best approach. It's basicially a synopsis of the rift that exist in this country today. Civics! It's a lot like refining the unrefined. And you have the right not to ablige. Thank the founding fathers for that!
The majority of people in the world today assume or believe that Jesus Christ was at the very least a real person. Perhaps he wasn't really "the Messiah", perhaps he was not "The Son of God", and perhaps he didn't actually perform miracles and rise from the dead, but he really was a great moral teacher who traveled around Galilee with followers and got arrested by the Jews and crucified by the Romans right? Not likely. In fact, a close examination of the evidence shows that the best explanation for the story of "Jesus Christ" is what we call "mythology". The case that I will be outlining here is that there never was any "Jesus Christ" nor any meaningful real life basis for the story of "Jesus Christ". Like many other religious figures, "Jesus Christ" began as a theological concept, was later used as a character in allegorical stories, and was then historicized as someone whom people believed really existed. The belief in a literal "human" Jesus most likely emerged as eucharist rituals and theology developed around the concept of the "flesh" and "blood" of Christ and these concepts merged with allegorical narratives about the figure.
• “Star of Bethlehem” - No record of such a celestial event outside the Gospel of Matthew. • Roman census in Jesus birth story – No record of any census that matches this description. • “Massacre of the Innocents” - No record of this event outside the Gospel of Matthew. • John the Baptist – Killed early in the Gospels, died in 36 CE according to Josephus. • Death of Jesus – Accompanied by blackout of sun, earthquakes, and raising of the dead in the Gospels, no record of this by others. It is important to note that we have one, and only one, source of information about the life of Jesus and that is the Christian Gospels. The Gospels are the sole source of information about this figure; everything that we "know" about "him" depends on these sources.
Not only can Christianity be explained without a real historical Jesus at its core, but the historical facts that we do have are best explained if Jesus never existed.
Etiquette? Tact? I'd say the non-believers win this one. We're not trying to get you to stop being Christians. It's the intolerant religious right that, like the Spanish Inquisition, is trying to force us all to live by their beliefs. I'd take issue with your "Most people that express faith do it because they believe..." Actually, most of these "believers" don't know what they're talking about and have clearly not read the bible. These are peacocks showing their religious colors to impress. You said you've been to Saddleback Church. How many Mercedes, BMWs, Hummers, etc. did you see in the parking lot? Boob jobs (it is Orange County after all)? Garish finger nails? Botox bumps? Plumped (beyond natural) lips? Even the hypocritical evangelicals (like Rick Warren) would have a hard time convincing anyone that this is Christ-like.
The prosperity of America is the result not of Christian influence, but of Christian impotence by way of the Constitution. The most contemptible and unenviable societies were ones that had the greatest Christian influence. Just explore the immense blood-letting, iniquities, and religious persecution of colonial America and Europe. These cultures were MORE Christian than the subsequent Constitutional era. Now go research the high standards of living (including happiness, low crime, and low poverty rates) of secular Scandinavian countries. While you're at it, study the low crime of Japan, a country that has no Ten Commandments or prayer in schools.
James Madison If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be — a Christian.” Mark Twain "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Thomas Jefferson "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." John Adams
Welcome. The hypocrisy in Western Religion is that life is considered a one-shot deal, so an out had to be built in: as long as you're sorry, Hot Damn you're Heaven Bound. Conversely, Eastern religions include reincarnation: screw up and you're coming back, maybe into a lower life form depending on how badly you screwed up. Eastern Religions actually hold one responsible for one's actions. Gotta love that.
How about "Whoa, I must have miscommunicated what I meant."? Or, "Whoa, I meant to say"? Or "Whoa, I have no idea how my message became so skewed"? Almost everyone who has commented actually read and understood what you wrote, so "we" don't really have a problem with comprehension.
Is your goal to show that evangelical Christians are liars? That their understanding of history in general and American history in particular is laughable? That they are incredibly un-Christ-like in their every move? When these wonderful evangelicals read your post I bet god will (personally) tell them to ignore the truth and continue their crusade.
Anyone who insists this country is founded on the Ten Commandments hasn't read the Ten Commandments (any of the multiple Biblical versions of them), or hasn’t compared them to our Constitution. Anyone who says that this country was founded on "Christian Values" (whatever they are) just needs to explain what "values" this country has that are defined in the Christian bible that is unique to Christianity and which have been codified in our laws. Perhaps they will offer hanging witches as a Christian value. Certainly the Bible endorses that, and certainly thousands of colonists were killed as witches by Christians. If so then absolutely that particular Christian value was embraced in the 17th century by Christians of this continent.
If anti-Semitism and intolerance of other sects and religions, is a Christian value, then indeed that value was embraced in the 17th century and forward by our early Christian residents. If trying to force people to honor the Christian god by imposing blasphemy laws that fine, imprison or kill for their violation, then yes, that particular Christian ideal was observed here as well. Christians may well stake their claim to those ideals and values. They are welcome to them. But nothing in our Constitution or in the Common Law (derived from pre-Christian Anglo Saxon common law) speaks to Christian "values" or infers any Christian dogma, doctrine, or rituals. Freedom of speech is NOT a Christian value. Nor is freedom of religion, nor the right to vote, nor granting private ownership of firearms, nor determining who is qualified to hold office, nor is the abolition of slavery, nor is the concept of equality. Jesus never spoke on these issues or endorsed them. And they sure weren't universally practiced in Christian Europe.
In order to persecute Christians for their beliefs we'd need to care, and we don't. You can believe anything you want (e.g., you'll get your own planet after death). We don't care. Really. It's you, the religious persecutors, that want to cram your parochial beliefs down everyone's throats and punish non-believers based on your narrow view of the world. You are not being persecuted if the rest of us (e.g., fact-believers) refuse to be governed by your fairy tales.
David Barton's book, the one with a foreword by Beck, and an intro by Huckabee. That is, the publisher pulled his book because it contained way too many factual errors. http://bit.ly/O6lDXd Chris Rodda was instrumental in getting this demagogue re-exposed. http://bit.ly/O6lLGk In related news, he'll be on Beck TV 24x7 for a few days. Watch for another Huckabee led protest asking people to buy this book, because, freedom of speech. Also liberal plot. From http://bit.ly/O6m1Fb "[A] group of conservative scholars says Barton’s take on Jefferson is factually untrue. And a group of ministers from Cincinnati called on Nelson to cancel the book. Casey Francis Harrell, director of corporate communications for Thomas Nelson, said the publisher had gotten several complaints about the book and found enough errors to cancel it" Yup, crucified by his own. Jesus like?